Welcome, Guest

TOPIC: GTW with B+E

GTW with B+E 2 weeks 4 days ago #473762

  • Dazzzzbo
  • Dazzzzbo's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 32
  • Thank you received: 3
Hi all.

Sorry fir all the questions but there appears to be a lot of knowledgable people on here so I will ask :cheer:
I understand about Mam, miro, mtplm and gtw however there is something that I have heard and want to clarify.

Last week I nearly bought an 06 Ford galaxy the one with the VW engine.
I asked the seller to send me a pic of the vin plate.
The Mam was 2510kg the gtw was 4000kg leaving 1490kg. My van is 1500kg so 10 kg to heavy.
My insurance is void if I go over gtw.
I read that the plated weights only count for B licences and for B+E they will weigh the vehicles. Is that correct as it would be hard to weigh something if it was smashed to bits and surely Vosa would just look at the plates?
I ended up not buying it for this reason.
It just seems crazy that my Passat could legally to 300kg more legally.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

GTW with B+E 2 weeks 4 days ago #473773

  • ProfJohnL
  • ProfJohnL's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 12183
  • Thank you received: 1582
Hello dazzzzbo,

You seem to be falling into the trap that many people do untill they understand exactly what they are looking at.
The plates on the the vehicles only give information about the load limits for the vehicle, it is not what the vehicle actually weighs. Provided none of the limits are exceed, the vehicle is operating within its designed and authorised range.

If for example a car had a towed weight limit of 1500kg it is perfectly legal for it tow a part loaded trailer with an MTPLM of 2000kg provided that the trailers axle load does not exceed 1500kg. And that the total measured weight of the combined out fit does not exceed the tow vehicles GTW limit.

For the authorities to pursue a charge of excess loading, the have to have measured the suspect vehicle on a calibrated scale. Without that evidence they cannot charge a driver with an excess load offence. But where as excess load offences require measurement evidence, dangerous or unsafe loads do not, it's more of an opinion based on observation. So it is still possible to have what is considered an unsafe outfit, even though its weights are legal.

The only time that the vehicles data plate limits are used without measurements is to check the drivers license entitlements.
Unless I use quotes, All advice and opinions given are my own and are given in good faith. Never act on anything you read on a forum unless you can validate and verify its source and content.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dazzzzbo

GTW with B+E 2 weeks 3 days ago #473775

  • Dazzzzbo
  • Dazzzzbo's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 32
  • Thank you received: 3
Hi John
Thanks for reply it clears that up for me. Do you think I would have to ring my insurance company to check that they work this way as it is one of the exclusions in the small print that they won’t pay out if gtw is exceeded ?

Cheers
The administrator has disabled public write access.

GTW with B+E 2 weeks 3 days ago #473776

  • Lutz
  • Lutz's Avatar
  • Online
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 8883
  • Thank you received: 121
The 1500kg MTPLM of the caravan includes its noseweight. The towload limit of 1490kg is the axle load of the caravan, not its total weight and therefore doesn't include the noseweight, so unless you have less than 10kg (1500-1490) noseweight, you would not be exceeding any limits even if the caravan is fully laden right up to its MTPLM.

Don't forget that the gross train weight is not the sum of max. gross vehicle weight and the MTPLM of the caravan, but the sum of all axle loads.
BMW X4 3.0d
Dethleffs Beduin 545V
Last Edit: 2 weeks 3 days ago by Lutz.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

GTW with B+E 2 weeks 3 days ago #473777

  • otherclive
  • otherclive's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 6125
  • Thank you received: 1401
Dazzzzbo wrote:
Hi John
Thanks for reply it clears that up for me. Do you think I would have to ring my insurance company to check that they work this way as it is one of the exclusions in the small print that they won’t pay out if gtw is exceeded ?

Cheers

There is always the possibility that you could be called in by Police for a VOSA weighbridge check. They will check plates and weigh the outfit. It happened to me near Ringwood. There’s a post from yesterday on the Forum from an MOT tester who reports plans to check more trailers in the next year and that’s not an mot check it’s roadside checks. So yes if the vans been destroyed in an accident it would be difficult to check it’s weight.

Why would you need to tell your insurer if you don’t plan to exceed. GTW? You can load your van below MTPLM and that’s not a problem after all when you buy and collect an empty van it will be below MTPLM. So as long as your licence covers the plated weights of the outfit you are legal.
Skoda Superb Estate 2.0 TDi SE CR 170ps DSG 4x4 carrying two Springers, Sprite Musketeer TD 2013.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

GTW with B+E 2 weeks 3 days ago #473785

  • Woodentop
  • Woodentop's Avatar
  • Online
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 702
  • Thank you received: 176
Lutz wrote:
The 1500kg MTPLM of the caravan includes its noseweight. The towload limit of 1490kg is the axle load of the caravan, not its total weight and therefore doesn't include the noseweight, so unless you have less than 10kg (1500-1490) noseweight, you would not be exceeding any limits even if the caravan is fully laden right up to its MTPLM.

Don't forget that the gross train weight is not the sum of max. gross vehicle weight and the MTPLM of the caravan, but the sum of all axle loads.

This comment does raise one question - what is your caravan axle limit? If you look on the axle case you will find the axle limit label. In theory it should be at the middle of the axle facing backwards but in practice it could be anywhere. Look underneath, then reach out with a camera (you may have difficulty using a phone) and take a picture of it. Most Al-Ko weights are in 50Kg steps so even though your van is rate 1490 the axle will likely be 1500.
Depending o the age of the van there may also be a duplicate (effectively) in the gas locker.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

GTW with B+E 2 weeks 3 days ago #473788

  • Lutz
  • Lutz's Avatar
  • Online
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 8883
  • Thank you received: 121
Woodentop wrote:

This comment does raise one question - what is your caravan axle limit? If you look on the axle case you will find the axle limit label. In theory it should be at the middle of the axle facing backwards but in practice it could be anywhere. Look underneath, then reach out with a camera (you may have difficulty using a phone) and take a picture of it. Most Al-Ko weights are in 50Kg steps so even though your van is rate 1490 the axle will likely be 1500.
Depending o the age of the van there may also be a duplicate (effectively) in the gas locker.

The plate on the axle does not quote the axle load limit that is valid for the finished caravan. That is only to be found on the statutory plate (that is the one referred to as the duplicate above). The axle plate applies to the chassis only, not for the complete caravan. The caravan manufacturer is at liberty to reduce the axle load if he thinks fit. Hence the limit on the axle may not be the same as the one on the statutory plate, but can be lower.
BMW X4 3.0d
Dethleffs Beduin 545V
The administrator has disabled public write access.

GTW with B+E 2 weeks 3 days ago #473789

  • ProfJohnL
  • ProfJohnL's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 12183
  • Thank you received: 1582
Dazzzzbo wrote:
Hi John
Thanks for reply it clears that up for me. Do you think I would have to ring my insurance company to check that they work this way as it is one of the exclusions in the small print that they won’t pay out if gtw is exceeded ?

Cheers
It's illegal to load a vehicle beyond any of its weight limits displayed on it's VIN plate including the GTW, so if you do exceed the GTW then not only will your insurance be void, you risk being prosecuted for overloading.

What you have done is to add the GVW(MAM) 2510 of the car to the MTPLM (MAM) 1500 of the caravan and got a figure for the combined MAM of the outfit of 4010kg. Remember this is the combined fully laden capacity of the outfit not not what it actually weighs. IF you had loaded both the car and the caravan to their individual limits, and you then coupled them together then you would exceed the cars 4000 GTW limit by 10kg, and the the cars 2500 GVW would be also be overloaded to a greater extent because the nose load of the caravan would be adding it's load to the the car.

But in practice and whilst it is surprising how quickly you can use up the load capacity of a caravan, it's generally more difficult to fully load a car, so the chances of actually exceeding the cars GTW figure reduces.

Lutz has added the point about how the trailers noseload has to be accommodated in the cars loading, so I won't cover that again.

You will need to be sensible about what you take with you, as you have mentioned it's a six berth caravan and the Galaxy is a seven seater. A trip to a weigh bridge when loaded with all the bits and pieces , people and luggage may be wise.
Unless I use quotes, All advice and opinions given are my own and are given in good faith. Never act on anything you read on a forum unless you can validate and verify its source and content.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

GTW with B+E 2 weeks 3 days ago #473790

  • otherclive
  • otherclive's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 6125
  • Thank you received: 1401
Woodentop wrote:
Lutz wrote:
The 1500kg MTPLM of the caravan includes its noseweight. The towload limit of 1490kg is the axle load of the caravan, not its total weight and therefore doesn't include the noseweight, so unless you have less than 10kg (1500-1490) noseweight, you would not be exceeding any limits even if the caravan is fully laden right up to its MTPLM.

Don't forget that the gross train weight is not the sum of max. gross vehicle weight and the MTPLM of the caravan, but the sum of all axle loads.

This comment does raise one question - what is your caravan axle limit? If you look on the axle case you will find the axle limit label. In theory it should be at the middle of the axle facing backwards but in practice it could be anywhere. Look underneath, then reach out with a camera (you may have difficulty using a phone) and take a picture of it. Most Al-Ko weights are in 50Kg steps so even though your van is rate 1490 the axle will likely be 1500.
Depending o the age of the van there may also be a duplicate (effectively) in the gas locker.

When I had a new axle fitted last year it was easier to use an iPhone to record details of the old axle and its serial number than using a camera.
Skoda Superb Estate 2.0 TDi SE CR 170ps DSG 4x4 carrying two Springers, Sprite Musketeer TD 2013.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

GTW with B+E 2 weeks 3 days ago #473796

  • Lutz
  • Lutz's Avatar
  • Online
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 8883
  • Thank you received: 121
ProfJohnL wrote:
What you have done is to add the GVW(MAM) 2510 of the car to the MTPLM (MAM) 1500 of the caravan and got a figure for the combined MAM of the outfit of 4010kg. Remember this is the combined fully laden capacity of the outfit not not what it actually weighs. IF you had loaded both the car and the caravan to their individual limits, and you then coupled them together then you would exceed the cars 4000 GTW limit by 10kg, and the the cars 2500 GVW would be also be overloaded to a greater extent because the nose load of the caravan would be adding it's load to the the car.

What I had tried to explain is that you can't add the GVW(MAM) of the car to the MTPLM of the caravan as you would be counting the noseweight twice. The noseweight is part of the GVW of the car just as much as it is part of the MTPLM of the caravan.
otherclive wrote:

When I had a new axle fitted last year it was easier to use an iPhone to record details of the old axle and its serial number than using a camera.

There is little point in keeping a record of what is shown on the axle because, as I tried to explain, it is irrelevant to the end user. It there for the caravan manufacturer only and it doesn't affect the plated axle load of the finished caravan.
BMW X4 3.0d
Dethleffs Beduin 545V
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: otherclive

Most recent caravan reviews

Bailey Phoenix 440 - Decals on the side of the 440 feature a distinctive colour, purple, and have the same pattern with the large 'B' at the rear that you find on all Bailey models (© Practical Caravan)
Knaus Sport Silver 400LK - The Knaus Sport Silver 400LK is a compact family model. Although the door is not on the UK side, build quality throughout is first class (© Practical Caravan)

Lunar Ariva

£17,199

Lunar Ariva - Well-equipped and compact, the Ariva reaches its 25th year in 2020; perhaps that might be the time to give the profile a bit of an uplift? (© Practical Caravan)
Bailey Pegasus Rimini - The new Pegasus is now 8ft wide, but its profile remains pretty much the same, except for smart new graphics (© Practical Caravan)